new gopro question

[SurfnSkate81]

I hadn't thought about that- so at 30 FPS the shutter is open longer than at 60 FPS and you capture more information per frame?

Yep thats a 4-10 there, I've also been shooting at 30fps during the day or 24fps when its dusk and getting hard to see. Letting more light into that exposure means that you will most definitely need an ND filter. I've even been using ND filters at 30fps when its heavily overcast and flying in between rain showers.

 

[pyrate]

just remember you also capture more motion
so fast movements or fast moving objects will blur

I use 30 fps diving, because its dark down there and I have to use a red filter to correct for loss of that light band.
it works out fine, because I don't move real fast under water
that would not work on a flying drone as well

 

[SurfnSkate81]

I'm all about moving slow and steady when flying. As a viewer I hate nothing more than to much movement, everything flying by before I can see it and especially so for aerial which shows the viewer so much on the screen. I want time to take in all of that stunning vista you are showing me.

This is my personal preference and is not set in stone and would change depending on what you and /or your client required. Like say if you were following someone/something at speed then they would obviously would be the focus of the viewer and not so much the scenery whizzing by.


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[EyeWingsuit]

I hadn't thought about that- so at 30 FPS the shutter is open longer than at 60 FPS and you capture more information per frame?

You capture more information per frame, but because there are more frames per second, the bitrate drops. Everything is a tradeoff.
This is also one of the reasons I am super excited about HEVC.

 

[Maddog]

You capture more information per frame, but because there are more frames per second, the bitrate drops. Everything is a tradeoff.
This is also one of the reasons I am super excited about HEVC.

Oh boy- I just can't keep up with this stuff.

 

[erikgraham]

Oh boy- I just can't keep up with this stuff.

All you really need to know is that the higher the frame rate, the lower the image quality.

 

[erikgraham]

I hadn't thought about that- so at 30 FPS the shutter is open longer than at 60 FPS and you capture more information per frame?

Ok we might as well dive into this deeper...

The reason quality suffers at higher frame rates has more to do with data rate than shutter speed. The GoPro can only record so much information to the SD card per second. To keep the math simple, let's say the max data rate is 60megabits per second. Therefore at 60 fps, each frame can store 1megabit. But if you shoot at 30fps, each frame can be 2megagabits. Double the data, double the quality.

Unfortunately we can't directly control shutter speed on the GoPro. It is set automatically based on the amount of light detected. If it's a really bright day, the GoPro will automatically crank up shutter speed regardless of frame rate. So for example, you could be shooting 30 fps, but during each frame the shutter might only be open for 1/120th of a second. If you changed to 60fps but the lighting stays the same, the shutter would still only be open for 1/120th of a second during each individual frame. So in this example, the shutter speed is the same at both 30fps and 60fps. The image quality will still be higher in the 30fps version because of the data rate.

You can trick your GoPro into using a slower shutter speed by putting on an ND filter. The GoPro thinks it's darker outside than it is, so it keeps the shutter open longer. But if your shooting at 60fps, the maximum the shutter can be open during each frame is 1/60th of a second. If you are shooting at 30 fps, the shutter could be held open 1/30th of second. That allows the sensor more time to soak up light. It can result in a cinematic looking motion blur - without loosing detail or quality in stationary subjects. The motion blur also reduces or removes jello.

If you shoot with Protune on, the GoPro increases its data rate, improving quality... but you better have a fast SD card to keep up. Also, you have to color correct your video in post because Protune footage looks flat and lifeless until it's processed - when Protune is OFF, the GoPro processes the picture for you. With Protune ON, the GoPro captures more data, but leaves the processing up to a human using software on a computer.

 

[Maddog]

Ok we might as well dive into this deeper...

The reason quality suffers at higher frame rates has more to do with data rate than shutter speed. The GoPro can only record so much information to the SD card per second. To keep the math simple, let's say the max data rate is 60megabits per second. Therefore at 60 fps, each frame can store 1megabit. But if you shoot at 30fps, each frame can be 2megagabits. Double the data, double the quality.

Unfortunately we can't directly control shutter speed on the GoPro. It is set automatically based on the amount of light detected. If it's a really bright day, the GoPro will automatically crank up shutter speed regardless of frame rate. So for example, you could be shooting 30 fps, but during each frame the shutter might only be open for 1/120th of a second. If you changed to 60fps but the lighting stays the same, the shutter would still only be open for 1/120th of a second during each individual frame. So in this example, the shutter speed is the same at both 30fps and 60fps. The image quality will still be higher in the 30fps version because of the data rate.

You can trick your GoPro into using a slower shutter speed by putting on an ND filter. The GoPro thinks it's darker outside than it is, so it keeps the shutter open longer. But if your shooting at 60fps, the maximum the shutter can be open during each frame is 1/60th of a second. If you are shooting at 30 fps, the shutter could be held open 1/30th of second. That allows the sensor more time to soak up light. It can result in a cinematic looking motion blur - without loosing detail or quality in stationary subjects. The motion blur also reduces or removes jello.

If you shoot with Protune on, the GoPro increases its data rate, improving quality... but you better have a fast SD card to keep up. Also, you have to color correct your video in post because Protune footage looks flat and lifeless until it's processed - when Protune is OFF, the GoPro processes the picture for you. With Protune ON, the GoPro captures more data, but leaves the processing up to a human using software on a computer.

Thanks! Now I get it.

I just started experimenting with 2.7K, 30 FPS, wide, pro tune on, white balance @ native, GoPro color off, 400 ISO. You're right- it almost looks black & white.

I am using Cyberlink Power Director 13 for post and I can't get the footage to look as "colorful" as it is if I let GoPro process it. I've been concentrating mostly on saturation & vibrancy but that only goes so far.
Any tips?

 

[EyeWingsuit]

Thanks! Now I get it.

I just started experimenting with 2.7K, 30 FPS, wide, pro tune on, white balance @ native, GoPro color off, 400 ISO. You're right- it almost looks black & white.

I am using Cyberlink Power Director 13 for post and I can't get the footage to look as "colorful" as it is if I let GoPro process it. I've been concentrating mostly on saturation & vibrancy but that only goes so far.
Any tips?

Blackmagic Design: DaVinci Resolve 12 This is a free version of the more expensive pro version. However, the free version is STUPID POWERFUL.
It'll work directly with the ProTune files, too. Takes a bit of time to learn, but it'll knock you out. It's also a reasonably good elementary editor. In the image below, I placed a bypass band to give you an idea of pre-processed footage vs post.
The middle section is the original fram, the upper and lower are obviously post-process. This is very, very dark with an iso of (I believe) 800, so lots of noise. However, the noise isn't terrible when pushed. This processing took perhaps...10 seconds. SO MUCH more headroom when shooting neutral.

 

[Maddog]

Blackmagic Design: DaVinci Resolve 12 This is a free version of the more expensive pro version. However, the free version is STUPID POWERFUL.
It'll work directly with the ProTune files, too. Takes a bit of time to learn, but it'll knock you out. It's also a reasonably good elementary editor. In the image below, I placed a bypass band to give you an idea of pre-processed footage vs post.
The middle section is the original fram, the upper and lower are obviously post-process. This is very, very dark with an iso of (I believe) 800, so lots of noise. However, the noise isn't terrible when pushed. This processing took perhaps...10 seconds. SO MUCH more headroom when shooting neutral.
View attachment 2423

When you say it's an elementary editor, do you mean for cutting/splicing clips, adding titles, etc?

Do you need to use something else with this to completely edit a video?

Wow- just completely read through your link. I wonder if that's more than I need for videos destined primarily to the Internet.

 

[EyeWingsuit]

I use Sony Vegas Pro or Adobe Premiere CC for much of my editing, but the color correction algorithms in Resolve are amazing, and now in this version of Resolve, you can do basic editing.
Titles, etc are (for fun) generated in either Vegas or Premiere. Anything for work is usually done in AfterEffects or other compositing tool.
Resolve is a very, very basic editor with the power features of a once-$200,000 color timing suite.

 

[J R]

Anything for work is usually done in AfterEffects or other compositing tool.
Resolve is a very, very basic editor with the power features of a once-$200,000 color timing suite.

Jeez, what I would give to spend a day with guys like you, Erik, Jubalr, Pdxsteve, Pyrate and some others. I can build a motorcycle in my sleep, like Roland probably can with quads but this stuff is all Greek to me. I learn so much better by watching and instruction than I do by reading. Do any of you guys have websites or channels where your stuff can be viewed?

I downloaded and installed DaVinci Lite, I cant even figure out how to get a clip in there. Guess it's time to search some tutorials. I'm at the Windows Movie Maker level and half-assed learning Cyberlink Power Producer and Premier Elements 14 (note the "half-assed"). For camera settings, I punch in whatever you guys say but because I know nothing about post-editing, it probably does me no good.

Thanks so much for the info you guys provide to people like me. I don't contribute much but I read every one of the posts you guys write.

Jerry

 

[EyeWingsuit]

Jeez, what I would give to spend a day with guys like you, Erik, Jubalr, Pdxsteve, Pyrate and some others. I can build a motorcycle in my sleep, like Roland probably can with quads but this stuff is all Greek to me. I learn so much better by watching and instruction than I do by reading. Do any of you guys have websites or channels where your stuff can be viewed?

I downloaded and installed DaVinci Lite, I cant even figure out how to get a clip in there. Guess it's time to search some tutorials. I'm at the Windows Movie Maker level and half-assed learning Cyberlink Power Producer and Premier Elements 14 (note the "half-assed"). For camera settings, I punch in whatever you guys say but because I know nothing about post-editing, it probably does me no good.

Thanks so much for the info you guys provide to people like me. I don't contribute much but I read every one of the posts you guys write.

Jerry

Jerry,
Where do you live? At events like NAB, CES, NAPTE, WEVA, AVN, I'm frequently a lecturer at these conferences. NAB has a drone-specific video conference, April in Las Vegas. I'll be there teaching much of this as part of both the Post Production World Conference, and part of the Flying Cameras conference.

 

[J R]

Jerry,
Where do you live? At events like NAB, CES, NAPTE, WEVA, AVN, I'm frequently a lecturer at these conferences. NAB has a drone-specific video conference, April in Las Vegas. I'll be there teaching much of this as part of both the Post Production World Conference, and part of the Flying Cameras conference.

Eye,

The Boonies of South Dakota, in the middle of nowhere. Closest neighbor is over a quarter mile away. Retired from 30 years of successful entrepreneurial business endeavors. Just trying to keep my mind busy at 57! After traveling the world many times over, I don't get out much anymore. I loved Vegas and conferences when I was 30, I hate them now! I'll learn from you guys in the end, It'll just take a lot longer as long as you guys keep posting. I love your posts, Eye! Please keep them coming!

Jerry

 

[Maddog]

Just downloaded Davinci Resolve 12 (free). Decided I better skim through the manual so I downloaded that- all 1100 pages.

I might just buy a hotdog cart instead of doing aerial photography.

 

[EyeWingsuit]

Nah...

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This is a GREAT start, even if you don't know one thing about the app.

 

[SurfnSkate81]

You can even grab some of the Ground Control LUTs to give your Protune colour a lift without having to know to much about colour grading and correction. Good easy way to get you started. Also check out Color Grading Centrals Osiris LUTs.

Once you know the basics of adding media to Resolve and then adding to your timeline you will be on your way.

Just remember that Resolve isn't very good at editing your H.264 clips straight from your GoPro. Se further back in this thread for some info regarding workflows.


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[SurfnSkate81]

Maybe Erik and EyeWingsuit can chime in here with some advice about dealing with H.264 off your memory card?


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[pyrate]

they have a good 6 part series on resolve, and a real good premiere pro section

chinfat

 

[EyeWingsuit]

Maybe Erik and EyeWingsuit can chime in here with some advice about dealing with H.264 off your memory card?


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If I'm working on my PC, I rarely xfer footage; I'll cut straight off the card (assuming it's a "for fun" flight). Otherwise, I Xfer to a HDD, and edit directly from there. If I'm cutting on my Mac, I'll convert/transcode to ProRes during the xfer. HTH?