My Solo Crashed HARD = Always keep an eye on that battery level, period!

[Dustin]

You sir are an !@#$. I know everything you mentioned, I'm also a private pilot, 20+ year simulation and design engineer and I know how to safely operate my Solo. I happened to be at a remote airfield and with a waiver in hand. When you are at altitude TRYING to get home, battery drain was quicker than I thought, period.

My 'balls' work great as home made leg extensions - again, you are a jerk.

Your NEGATIVE comments are unwarranted, I am a professional but obviously you are into bashing instead of commenting. Be supportive of fellow Solo owners and quit passing judgement when you don't even know me, or just be gone... go away from here to a galaxy far far away.

Agree-> Hey Chip, that wasn't very nice. How about a little civility and empathy? This forum is a community.

 

[RichWest]

In my testing with Solo, VRS is not as pronounced as with other brands. I have descended at full down throttle, which I believe is 2.5/ms, and had little to no VRS conditions. I believe the rectangular orientation of the motor layout reduces this effect to some degree.... ymmv

With the above in mind, 2.5/ms max decent rate from 4300' (1311m)AGL at 60% battery. That calculates to about 8-3/4 minutes to descend. That's with a straight up stock Solo. Your practice golf balls added a certain amount of drag to the motor's inefficiencies....just saying. None of the RTF smart batteries on the market are linear to their percentage indication. Less Voltage means less power, which mean faster depletion to maintain said power.

I know @DodgeP came across as being short and to the point, but he is correct in his assessment for your flight. I can't control how he delivered the message or his tone. He is correct.

I appreciate that you shared your experience with everyone here and over at DIY drones. You likely saved many others from similar destruction even from a regulated AGL. More importantly we have been able to discuss what happened, why and how to prevent minimize. I value your input here, stuff happens and hopefully we all learn from each others experiences for either good or bad.....

Good luck!

 

[J R]

I value your input here, stuff happens and hopefully we all learn from each others experiences for either good or bad.....

Well said Rich. Most of us are here to learn. We learn a great deal from the mistakes of others. I'm not here to judge, I'm here to share my experiences, give my opinions and learn.

Jerry

 

[AKPilot]

OK, here we go, the best I can remember because things happened fast!

First: !!!WARNING!!! - do NOT fly above 400 ft AGL unless you have proper contact and approval with your local ATC center! Again, I'm a pilot and I do not want to hit a UAS in mid-air myself.

I was with a friend that had a P3, we were in a very remote location and so we contacted the local ATC and told them we were going to do some altitude test with some UAS's, the nearest airport was 10 miles away and was military. We gave them the flight test times and they said there was no issue as long as we stayed within that time period, in fact the 4 days we camped there at the private airfield I did not see nor hear a single aircraft overhead.

So, off we go. We both stood in the middle of the airstrip and went vertical, full throttle. The P3 made it to ~3,200 ft AGL and Solo made it to about ~4,300 AGL so at least I won the bet. I had 60% battery once I got up there and figured it was a good time to head the heck HOME. Hit Home and waited for Solo to come back and everything was looking good, for a while...

Well, I keep a keen eye on the tablet telemetry data and the controller waiting for Solo to descend. Solo was directly overhead if you look at the video and I had several spotters watching. Now, it just appeared Solo was awful slow coming down and I was definitely getting nervous!

First thing that got weird is the Controller display locked up with an orange back-light display showing 999 ft AGL while Solo was at least 2,000 AGL, meanwhile tablet data display was still showing a decent. Believe me, I was very nervous about the controller 'locking up', (it still said 999 ft after the crash). I swear it took forever for Solo to loose altitude and I was now getting very worried. What to do, hit Home again? I held the Fly button down for Land Now to maybe speed up the decent and waited and waited. Well you know the rest.

Moral of the story, either the decent rate is really slower than accent rate or decent really eats the battery. Until I can retrieve the logs, I'll never know until I can review the actual data. Why Solo would not have enough battery to return is beyond me.

Solo boots fine, but now get a weird tone sequence, I called 3DR they said its GPS module failure. Visual inspection of module and cable shows no damage. I cannot access Solo and the Controller is hosed for now, so I'm stuck. Will try another battery pull and reset on the Controller and let you know how it goes. Again, no log files = no real data.

Chip,
I don't know if someone already replied with this but here are Solo's specs from the manual:
Cruise speed: 5.7 mph (2.5 m/s)
Maximum speed: 55 mph (25.5 m/s)
Maximum climb rate: 11 mph (5.0 m/s)
Maximum descent rate: 5.5 mph (2.5 m/s)
Headwind limitation: 25 mph (11 m/s) Crosswind limitation: 25 mph (11 m/s)

I never gave it much thought before your post (probably because I don't intend on testing ceiling limits) but If you were climbing at max ascent rate it would have taken approximately twice as long to descend if able to drop straight down. Even if there was less load on the battery it would have taken other testing as mentioned earlier to determine how much reserve you needed. Since you didn't know how high you would reach or rate of battery use on descent it would have been hard to calculate your max ceiling before returning home.

My learning point, if I decide to push the limits, is to do a lot more planning before making what appears to be an easy test and I will look at variables more closely. I still get nervous flying very far at all because some of the terrain here is very unforgiving with extremely difficult access.
Like others, I thank you for sharing your experience for all to learn and hopefully fly safer.

 

[Michael Mahler]

And probably by design to prevent Vortex ring state.
Vortex Ring State (The Wobble of Death) | Quadcopter Flight School

Thanks for that great link, not only a good explanation of Vortex Ring State but the tip about using transitional lift to reduce power consumption during ascent is great too. I think Marich was trying to tell us about that but I didn't understand it until I saw that video.

 

[Chip Luck]

Chip,
I don't know if someone already replied with this but here are Solo's specs from the manual:
Cruise speed: 5.7 mph (2.5 m/s)
Maximum speed: 55 mph (25.5 m/s)
Maximum climb rate: 11 mph (5.0 m/s)
Maximum descent rate: 5.5 mph (2.5 m/s)
Headwind limitation: 25 mph (11 m/s) Crosswind limitation: 25 mph (11 m/s)

I never gave it much thought before your post (probably because I don't intend on testing ceiling limits) but If you were climbing at max ascent rate it would have taken approximately twice as long to descend if able to drop straight down. Even if there was less load on the battery it would have taken other testing as mentioned earlier to determine how much reserve you needed. Since you didn't know how high you would reach or rate of battery use on descent it would have been hard to calculate your max ceiling before returning home.

My learning point, if I decide to push the limits, is to do a lot more planning before making what appears to be an easy test and I will look at variables more closely. I still get nervous flying very far at all because some of the terrain here is very unforgiving with extremely difficult access.
Like others, I thank you for sharing your experience for all to learn and hopefully fly safer.

Makes more sense now. Being an engineer and pilot, I have to look at all the data available and most of you guy's have really helped out a lot. Will look into it further for sure. Learn by my 'mistake' is no problem here. IF you do not try, you will never gain... anything. Again, thanks for all of your input.

Cheers

 

[flabango]

Sorry for your loss. Have you thought about changing your username?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LuvMyTJ]

You ignored every safety feature 3DR built into the system to prevent this kind of accident. You ignored the haptic and audio feedback and had to override RTH once it kicked in at around 5%.

I'm not here to be sympathetic to your admitted stupidity however, when you state, and then later state You got exactly what you deserve. What did you think would happen when you reached 0% battery? You thought solo would float back to earth like a bird feather, swooping back and forth until you were able to catch it or did you think the little yellow balls would absorb the shock from the fall. I'm so interested in what you were thinking would happen once the battery reached 0%.

You ignored every safety feature 3DR built into the system to prevent this kind of accident. You ignored the haptic and audio feedback and had to override RTH once it kicked in at around 5%.

You're the type of "pilot" that would have his arse handed to him if your Solo would have fell out the sky and struck someone in the head or caused a major accident but because the only thing that happened was if fell to ground just beyond a parked pick up truck, everything is fine and you're receiving these sympathetic responses. I hope you have to come out of pocket for a brand new bird.

You ignored every safety feature 3DR built into the system to prevent this kind of accident. You ignored the haptic and audio feedback and had to override RTH once it kicked in at around 5%.

You need to do more than just put little foam balls on the legs of Solo in order to operate it safely or protect it from crashing. Step 1, listen to what the built in safety features are trying to warn you about. With this type of behavior, I hope you never get an exemption and if you do, I hope you're never flying in a city where my or my family are.

We are all here for the same reason, to discuss the 3DR products in a productive and friendly way. All members must keep it civil and refrain from berating other members. I am sure the OP will not make that mistake again.

 

[Chip Luck]

Sorry for your loss. Have you thought about changing your username?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. Well Luck is my real last name, and I always tell people - if it were not for my last name, I would have no Luck at all!

Cheers

 

[Chip Luck]

We are all here for the same reason, to discuss the 3DR products in a productive and friendly way. All members must keep it civil and refrain from berating other members. I am sure the OP will not make that mistake again.

Thanks! That is what we are here for - to support each other as fellow Solo owners. I'm sharing this story so others may learn from my 'mistake'. Believe me, I've personally have learned a LOT from some of the kind folks here. Again, hat's off to all that have responded, you guy's rock.

Got an RMA from 3DR last night, so off goes Solo and Controller for repair. BTW: 3DR customer support was very professional and had a good experience, will let you all know how it goes.

Cheers

 

[Del]

Thanks! That is what we are here for - to support each other as fellow Solo owners. I'm sharing this story so others may learn from my 'mistake'. Believe me, I've personally have learned a LOT from some of the kind folks here. Again, hat's off to all that have responded, you guy's rock.

Got an RMA from 3DR last night, so off goes Solo and Controller for repair. BTW: 3DR customer support was very professional and had a good experience, will let you all know how it goes.

Cheers

Hey Chip.. Did you also send your controller with your Solo to 3DR so they can get at your Logs to see exactly what went wrong..?
Or were you able to retrieve your logs your self..?

 

[KnightRider]

Hey Chip.. Did you also send your controller with your Solo to 3DR so they can get at your Logs to see exactly what went wrong..?
Or were you able to retrieve your logs your self..?

His post above indicates he sent in both the Solo and controller...

Good luck, Mr. Luck!

 

[DodgeP]

We are all here for the same reason, to discuss the 3DR products in a productive and friendly way. All members must keep it civil and refrain from berating other members. I am sure the OP will not make that mistake again.

Miss me with the politics. Like I said in my post, if a serious injury would have occurred this conversation would have been a completely different discussion. If the OP wants to banter back and forth and only accept and openly receive sympathetic responses then he should DM his friends about his loss.

Nothing about my post was disrespectful nor unfriendly. If I'm not free to voice my opinion, re-using the adjectives that he stated himself, let me know. If you're comfortable with having "pilots" violate the BASIC rules of UAV flight; let us all know.

The guidelines and safety of all UAV flights whether imposed by the FAA or recommended by the manufacturer are in place for a reason and when they're broken or ignored, there's actually no place for friendliness.

 

[Del]

His post above indicates he sent in both the Solo and controller...

Good luck, Mr. Luck!

Sorry My bad... I don't know why I didint see that..

 

[LuvMyTJ]

Miss me with the politics. Like I said in my post, if a serious injury would have occurred this conversation would have been a completely different discussion. If the OP wants to banter back and forth and only accept and openly receive sympathetic responses then he should DM his friends about his loss.

Nothing about my post was disrespectful nor unfriendly. If I'm not free to voice my opinion, re-using the adjectives that he stated himself, let me know. If you're comfortable with having "pilots" violate the BASIC rules of UAV flight; let us all know.

The guidelines and safety of all UAV flights whether imposed by the FAA or recommended by the manufacturer are in place for a reason and when they're broken or ignored, there's actually no place for friendliness.

My post was in regards to the tone of your post. Discussion is welcome, but do it in a nice way. We aim to ensure that the forum is an enjoyable place that people want to visit repeatedly. The 3DRPilots Forum should be a virtual reflection of how we all hope the community of 3DR enthusiasts would act in the real world. Treat each other with respect just as you would if you were meeting in person for coffee before enjoying a day of flying together in shared airspace. This is a community of friends and partners who are collaborating to encourage and support a growing 3D Robotics community.

 

[User Name]

Nothing about my post was disrespectful nor unfriendly.

Maybe not disrespectful, but it'd be hard to describe your post as friendly.

The main criticism of your post - safety, would be entirely justified if your assumptions were correct. In this case, however, they are not. He states that he contacted the local airport and had clearance for his flight. He was in a remote location, not above people other than him and his friend. You've shown videos flying over Philly... what would have happened if a motor or ESC failed on your bird? Did you have clearance to fly over a city? Did you ensure that the streets below your intended flight path were clear of people? I'm thinking not. In that respect, him exceeding the flight capabilities in the location he flew posed a lesser risk of injury than your flights over a city.

We all take calculated risks when we send a multi-pound contraption up into the air. The total risk is some combination of location, conditions and flight plan. His flight plan was risky, but his location was safe. Your flight plan appears to be safe, but the location potentially risky. Hard to say if one is objectively worse than the other.

As for your tone, I've noticed you often have the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. You have every right to express your opinions, but if you want people to take them to heart, your delivery undermines that.

 

[twitchyzero]

i've read the entire thread, seems like a case of not knowing the descend rate vs ascend rate.

OP keep saying he's a seasoned pilot, checked with the ATS blah blah blah but sounds like he forgot to do some simple math that would've saved him thousands of dollars.

You reported taking 40% to acscend, assuming perfect conditions and Solo working at max rates, you wouldn't have able to land it safely anyways even if the Solo was functioning 100% in order as descend is 1/2 the rate of ascend (you would need a minimum 80% to land at that altitude).

you pushed it past 4000' pretty much an unknown territory for RTF quad, probably 3DR themselves haven't tested it that high. You can't expect anything in return, let this be an expensive lesson.

 

[J R]

Nothing about my post was disrespectful nor unfriendly.

Sir,

First, I disagree (That's twice now). I don't think your post was respectful in the least. You are certainly welcome to voice your opinion. Yell it from the top of the mountains if you choose to do so. Write the harshest words that you could possibly conceive. No biggie, I think it's still a free country here (well sorta').

I think what LuvMyTJ may be trying to say is...chill out dude!

Hopefully, we're all here for the same reason; to learn. I get so much information from the many bright minds on this board. Hell, I get very useful info from of a lot of the guys in my league. Chip was doing this as a test in a controlled environment. He acknowledged his errors and even chose to share them with us. No one was hurt, nothing was damaged, short of his bird and probably his pride (mine would have been, especially admitting this error in this forum). I ain't telling you guys anything about my screw-ups.

Give it a break and ease up now. We got your point, you're pissed. Get over it.

Now, please provide some information that I can use to be a better pilot and make better use of my bird. Absolutely no disrespect intended.

Jerry

 

[User Name]

I never gave it much thought before your post (probably because I don't intend on testing ceiling limits) but If you were climbing at max ascent rate it would have taken approximately twice as long to descend if able to drop straight down.

This is a great point that I'm sure not many would have considered. The landing and landing portion of RTL is very slow, and should always be taken into account even in "mormal" flying. It might only take a minute to climb to altitude, but you should leave several times that to come back down at the end of your flight.

Regarding vortex ring state, I haven't found it to be as dangerous as it's made out to be, at least on my 250, but that's pretty overpowered. The Solo seems to be on the overpowered side as well.

A few thoughts on VRS - as the video showed, all you need to do is move a bit in any lateral direction to get into clean air. I haven't tried this in manual mode on the Solo, but on my 250, you can keep the throttle at nearly a minimum, and it'll descend very quickly but remain relatively stable. At some point, your descent speed can put your a lot closer to clean air - you have a lot less of a column of down wash beneath you when your descending at a high rate with the throttle at a low speed than descending slowly with the throttle at a higher speed.

Lastly, if you want to increase your land speed in land or RTL, you can adjust the WPNAV_SPEED_DN parameter. Keep in mind this will apply to all auto/waypoint flights. I'm not sure what the stock setting on the Solo is, but on my 250, I changed it to 300 cm/second. When it's landing, it'd definitely in VRS, but comes right out of it upon reaching the altitude it switches to the final landing speed. Not sure I'd set the Solo to that speed, of if I'd change it at all, but that's the setting if someone wants to play around with it.

If you're really pushing your flight times and need to get down quick, RTL isn't the way to do it. Best to put it into manual and fly slowly forward or in circles with the throttle nearly all the way down. That'll descend as quickly as possible and keep you out of VRS.

 

[User Name]

You reported taking 40% to acscend, assuming perfect conditions and Solo working at max rates, you wouldn't have able to land it safely anyways even if the Solo was functioning 100% in order as descend is 1/2 the rate of ascend (you would need a minimum 80% to descend at that altitude).

If one makes the assumption that it takes less power to descend than ascend, a 40/60% split wouldn't be that unreasonable... cutting it pretty darn close, but not outrageous. I think the primary issue was not considering the descent speed while in RTL. I don't doubt that he could have gotten pretty close to landing in manual mode at maximum descent, but in RTL, yea, way too slow.

It's easy to criticize, but he didn't put anyone at risk, he had clearance for the flight, he's not blaming 3DR or anyone else. He misjudged the capabilities while trying to find the limit. Simple as that. Lesson learned I'm sure. No point lobbing criticisms at him, and him sharing the experience has at least made us all aware of the difference in ascent and descent rates and how they can play into flight plans.