What do you think of this drone/multi-rotor accident ? 30 days jail + 5K fine

[Lon Denard]

Ok, got it straight. Prosecutor brought in law professor from Malibu, CA to explain to Seattle, WA jury why flying drone over crowd outside direct line of sight is reckless endangerment.
Checked whether the expert posted anything on Facebook the same day he testified in trial and found this:

“If Defendant doesn’t testify in criminal trial, but in close Defense counsel poses hypothetical alternate actor. Would you consider it an alibi defense?”

In other words, the prosecution expert commented publicly about the defendant’s exercise of his 5th Amendment right not to testify while jury was deliberating. Lon, do you believe in no harm no foul?

Sure...

I have a new question for you. FPV goggles. Several people here had expressed interest in them and have discussed using them. Including a couple guideline Nazis. How do you maintain line of sight while using VR goggles? Also several companies offer them including DJI and Parrot. Wouldn't using FPV goggles constitute reckless endangerment and be in direct violation of FAA guidelines?

 

[Whirlygig]

Don't forget that all of this matters not in a civil case
you injure someone or damage property and some hammer lawyer would take the case in a minute if they figure you have assets worth taking

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[Whirlygig]

Here is video of expert who testified for prosecution. I felt awkward when he began the lecture holding one of ours and asking the viewer do you know the rules?

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[Lon Denard]

Here is video of expert who testified for prosecution. I felt awkward when he began the lecture holding one of ours and asking the viewer do you know the rules?

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Yea so I watched the video and all it talked about was registration, which I've done. Everything I've seen regarding "regulation" is about commercial drones. I understand that I might be subject to criminal or civil action if I harm someone while flying my drone, riding a skateboard, practicing parkour, or anything else for that matter. I still maintain that no matter what "rules" you follow, if someone gets hurt you could be in for a fight.

 

[Lon Denard]

Aww I guess you won't touch the FPV goggle question, huh? Don't tell me, do you use them, WG? I honestly might start a thread that asks how you maintain line of sight wearing FPV goggles?

 

[Whirlygig]

...I have a new question for you. FPV goggles. Several people here had expressed interest in them and have discussed using them. Including a couple guideline Nazis. How do you maintain line of sight while using VR goggles? Also several companies offer them including DJI and Parrot. Wouldn't using FPV goggles constitute reckless endangerment and be in direct violation of FAA guidelines?

Lon, I only tried FPV once. Made it through the donut hole at full speed in ACCRO mode. I dont know is maintaining direct visual line of sight that important? I heard something about that might be in the guidelines but who reads those.

 

[Lon Denard]

Lon, I only tried FPV once. Made it through the donut hole at full speed in ACCRO mode. I dont know is maintaining direct visual line of sight that important? I heard something about that might be in the guidelines but who reads those.



View attachment 5961

So I guess you all get to choose which guidelines are important and which aren't? I think the 400' is silly most of the time but I respect line of sight, not flying over crowds, near airports, sober, etc.

 

[Whirlygig]

Yea so I watched the video and all it talked about was registration, which I've done. Everything I've seen regarding "regulation" is about commercial drones. I understand that I might be subject to criminal or civil action if I harm someone while flying my drone, riding a skateboard, practicing parkour, or anything else for that matter. I still maintain that no matter what "rules" you follow, if someone gets hurt you could be in for a fight.

I did not post the video to prove anything in particular other than the city of Seattle hired a top flight expert to help present the case to the jury. But I agree with everything else. Its not like reckless endangerment is new law.

 

[Lon Denard]

Okay well you've knocked on me for not adhering to the guidelines and presented this guy as an expert but he didn't say anything that we didn't already know about registration. Then he "droned" on about commercial licenses which doesn't affect most of us. Man, what a lot of you fail to realize is that I've done extensive research into this after I purchased my first unit. I read the govt website and I registered. The regulation is that you are required to register, everything else are guidelines. As unlicensed civilians we are not required to follow guidelines. The federal govt has guidelines on what you should eat, drink, on exercise, how often you should see a doctor, blah, blah, blah.

Example,

"According to the 2005 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, you should consume between five and 13 servings of fruits and vegetables each day. This is equivalent to about 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 cups daily, depending on the amount of calories you need to consume for your weight and level of activity"

The damn FDA isn't going to show up on your doorstep to haul you away for not eating your broccoli! Some people keep repeating this crap as if Moses carried these guidelines down Mount Ararat carved onto stone tablets.

 

[Jubalr]

Okay well you've knocked on me for not adhering to the guidelines and presented this guy as an expert but he didn't say anything that we didn't already know about registration. Then he "droned" on about commercial licenses which doesn't affect most of us. Man, what a lot of you fail to realize is that I've done extensive research into this after I purchased my first unit. I read the govt website and I registered. The regulation is that you are required to register, everything else are guidelines. As unlicensed civilians we are not required to follow guidelines. The federal govt has guidelines on what you should eat, drink, on exercise, how often you should see a doctor, blah, blah, blah.

Example,

"According to the 2005 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, you should consume between five and 13 servings of fruits and vegetables each day. This is equivalent to about 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 cups daily, depending on the amount of calories you need to consume for your weight and level of activity"

The damn FDA isn't going to show up on your doorstep to haul you away for not eating your broccoli! Some people keep repeating this crap as if Moses carried these guidelines down Mount Ararat carved onto stone tablets.

I don't think the FDA is assessing fines based on eating habits. However the FAA is for drone operators. Here is a list of some of the fines the FAA has levied against drone operators recently based on existing Federal U.S.C.s and the civil penalties. You can now argue whether they are right or wrong or have the authority all you want. But these people DID pay a fine rather than fight it, though many were able to negotiate the fine to lesser amount.

Backstory on some of the flights that resulted in fines by the FAA..

 

[quick_dry]

IIRC the FPV goggle flight is made legal by the use of a spotter, counted as EVLOS operation. (That is my understanding of the rules under CASA or FAA)

 

[Whirlygig]

... Some people keep repeating this crap as if Moses carried these guidelines down Mount Ararat carved onto stone tablets.

Lon, I think you're mixing up Moses on Mt. Sinai with Noah and his Ark on Mt. Ararat. See this is what worries me. You keep saying you read the manual. Well, its not always enough to just read something whether it be the Bible or the 3DR Owners Manual. Sometimes actual comprehension of the material is important.

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[Lon Denard]

I don't think the FDA is assessing fines based on eating habits. However the FAA is for drone operators. Here is a list of some of the fines the FAA has levied against drone operators recently based on existing Federal U.S.C.s and the civil penalties. You can now argue whether they are right or wrong or have the authority all you want. But these people DID pay a fine rather than fight it, though many were able to negotiate the fine to lesser amount.

Backstory on some of the flights that resulted in fines by the FAA..

Hey I appreciate fact based debate, however, a casual skim appears to reveal that these are fines levied after an accident and in airport airspace. I will only contend two things; 1. I never said that all of the guidelines are ridiculous. In fact, the only guideline that I've professed a problem with is the blanket 400 foot flight limit. 2. There doesn't have to be any guidelines, rules, regulations, etc for the government to assess a fine after an accident which results in property damage or injury. These guys were found to be reckless after a crash. They were flying around people, in restricted airspace, but still I would bet that were it not for the crash, they would have packed up and went home. No harm, no foul. I would further contend that even if these guys could prove that they were following the guidelines to the letter, if there were injuries/ property damage there would be fines. Fine first, litigate later.

I think some of you jump to judgement before you've actually read what I've said. I'm talking about making short videos above the 400 foot mark out in the middle of nowhere. At least 30 miles from an airport. With no one else around. The likelihood of a crash that would endanger another person or result in private property damage is almost non existent. The possibility of a crash involving a commercial aircraft is laughable at best. If there isn't an incident/accident there won't be any fines.

Conversely, I own a couple small drones well under the half pound limit. I promise you that if I took one to the park and flew it into some little girl's face causing her to lose an eye, there would be fines and there would be litigation. I wouldn't be able to say that this drone doesn't fall under the UAS guidelines so I'm good right? It doesn't matter what you're doing, if you have an accident that endangers other people or damages property you're screwed.

 

[pyrate]

we get it man, the rules don't apply to you
that is why there are now regulations

 

[Lon Denard]

IIRC the FPV goggle flight is made legal by the use of a spotter, counted as EVLOS operation. (That is my understanding of the rules under CASA or FAA)

Fair enough and I suspected someone would say that (I checked too). Now the big question, are you all going to bring along a spotter every time you fly FPV? Would it be their job to let you know when you're getting out of line of sight? Sounds about right but would kind of suck to be the spotter...

 

[Lon Denard]

Lon, I think you're AWESOME! Purposefully mixing up Moses on Mt. Sinai with Noah and his Ark on Mt. Ararat was genius. See this is what worries me, you're just so much smarter than the rest of us. You keep saying you read the manual and it's so obvious that you should have written it. Well, its not always enough to just read something whether it be the Bible or the 3DR Owners Manual. Sometimes actual comprehension of the material is important and you, my friend are an inspiration to all of us! Thank you for being part of this forum, Lon. You enrich all of our lives in so many ways!

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Hey it let me modify your post...Hahaha!

Hahaha! Busted! I didn't feel like fixing it! The third mountain I was trying to remember was the one Abraham almost sacrificed his son on. I don't believe that one is named though. I could have saved myself some trouble by just saying "the mountain" instead of naming it.

 

[quick_dry]

Fair enough and I suspected someone would say that (I checked too). Now the big question, are you all going to bring along a spotter every time you fly FPV? Would it be their job to let you know when you're getting out of line of sight? Sounds about right but would kind of suck to be the spotter...

I doubt it - most goggle flying would be mini quads, and most meets I imagine there's always one guy replacing his batteries/props or something who could technically act as spotter. It seems like a more social thing than flying the cameras around.

When it comes to the aerial cameras, the more likely violation is the flying at twice the AGL allowed.

 

[pyrate]

racers tend to fly low I assume, purposely avoiding watching too much of that else I will want one

 

[Lon Denard]

I doubt it - most goggle flying would be mini quads, and most meets I imagine there's always one guy replacing his batteries/props or something who could technically act as spotter. It seems like a more social thing than flying the cameras around.

When it comes to the aerial cameras, the more likely violation is the flying at twice the AGL allowed.

'

Nope, people here have used FPV goggles with their Solo, read the entire post. I've seen fines for reckless endangerment, flying in restricted space without contacting ATC, etc. Since these fines have actually happened and you contend that it's "more likely" that you'd be fined for flying above the suggested AGL, let's see your proof. I have not seen a fine for flying above 400 feet anywhere. How would that even happen? An FAA official is gonna show up on my property with a range finder?

 

[Whirlygig]

FAA can cite any drone operator for reckless flying anywhere in the USA. FAA can seek to impose its own penalties on top of or in addition to any sought by state or local prosecutors for violation of state or local laws like trespass or reckless endangerment.

FAA has limited resources. It cannot know or pursue but a tiny fraction of potential cases. But, if you get in their sights for doing something very dangerous, they may pursue you or may simply decide to advise and assist state and local prosecutors bring the pain. The FAA has gone to great trouble to educate state and local LEO across the country how to investigate possible drone crimes including trespass and reckless endangerment. They have branch offices for this very purpose!