Has anyone been successful in getting 3DR to honor their money back guarantee?

[Ian [P13]]

@Earldgrayjr I know via Mission Planner the logs takes AGES to download, but apparently via SSH it's really fast. I'm still waiting on a Solo so I've not done it yet, but I'm fairly experienced with Arducopter logs so if you can get the dataflash log downloaded I'm happy to have a look at it and post some screenshots etc.

I'd hope someone on this group has done the log download and can help with some pointers.

 

[rrmccabe]

I have done it both ways. MP was painfully slow. I actually gave up. Connecting via SCP was pretty quick. Actually added an android app to transfer to my device easily. Its something that @Rich found and works perfect.

 

[Rodney Johnson]

Responding to both posts...

First... I was responding not with I have more experience with RC and therefore I am right, but rather I have considerable experience dealing with small companies and being on the leading edge, beta, etc.. I have stated here and specifcally to 3DR, I am not an expert on this system.... (though I am a very quick study ) The question was: Are my expectations to high? I sincerely don't think they are.

As I have stated several times now. Even though not officially that, and we all payed for our units, I have considered this beta from the start. My issue is NOT that something failed. It is what happened AFTER the failure, and the "choices" that 3DR continues to make in that regard.

Case in point is the flash logs. 3DR doesn't have the flash logs. The determination they made was with the tlogs, and they originally said I pushed the pause button. Looking at the logs, you can clearly see that wasn't the case. When I (politely) pointed that out, they didn't acknowledge anything, just came back with that it was "GPS degredation". When I responded asking about the details of that, they clammed up, responding to emails, but specifically avoiding those questions, over.. and over...

To recap: What ACTUALLY happened is that I had just taken off again after repositioning the camera, and had forgotten to start it reccording again. I got the Solo in a nice open space and tweaked it to be in a good spot, as I wanted to look at the tablet, and see if OSD would show me the GoPro wasn't recording.

The Solo then tumbled dropping 18 feet straight down going side over side and end over end in about 1 second. Luckily it landed in a thicket of blackberry and ivy, never actually touching the ground.

I of course sent the tlog files, and the response was that I put it into ALT HOLD and crashed it... I (politely) explained that I was giving very little stick input at the time of the crash, and assuming I had pushed pause (which I was sure I didn't but didn't know which input that was at the time) asked the question: What specific action I took caused the Solo to tumble straight down?

What I got back was the exact same statement. I then got into the logs and showed that i had in fact not pushed pause, and relayed that to 3DR. The reponse i recieved said that the Solo went into ALT HOLD due to "GPS degredation" (with 10 satellites and an hdop of 1.6) and I crashed it...

I started off my email explaining that I wanted to understand what was happening, but wanted it the understanding to be a parallel conversation, and my primary goal was getting the unit operational and only then (again) politely asked the question: What specific inputs I gave crashed the unit? Radio silence....

After several days, I called 3DR and talked to a manager. The manager said they would have someone else look at the logs and get back to me, would get motors coming to me quickly, and would also sell me motors just in case the motors were a result of the problem instead of the cause.

I responded, politely but adamantly asking for answers to my questions. I even broke them out from the previous narative and listed them as bullets....

What I next got back was an email from the same person that made the original (two) determinations, saying he had looked at it, and asked a colleague, and he was right, repeating the exact same statement.... And specifically not answering my questions.

Since then, I politely reminded them I was still waiting for answers to my questions... Response? Crickets..

I next got an email from a new 3DR person, that said my RMA had been approved, but there motors are not available, they can't tell me when they will be available, but to go order them on the website.... As we all know, that can't be done...

I called on Saturday asking about the motors, and asking to speak to the same manager again. I was very polite, as I have been all along. I was told that speaking to the manager was not possible, and that they have no motors and cannot tell me when they will, though I could "call back sometime late next week" when they might have some idea...

All this is in context of waiting a long time for the bird, and getting hung up on by their phone system repeatedly.

Again... My issue isn't something broke and I expect perfection. My issue is what happened after it broke, and what 3DR is NOT doing about it, after numerous interactions. This has gone on now for weeks, and I have no response, and no ETA of any kind for a repair. Clearly.. they just aren't that in to me as a customer....

Somebody can try to say the reason they aren't treating me well is something I said or did, or that I am lying or exagerating, but that just isn't the case, and having dealt with numerous people, with most of it in writing, the evidence is there that supports that.

Sorry for unloading a bit... but I am frustrated, getting a bit neat up on, and started off the process as a fan.

I do appreciate your response. I also don't doubt that something there in the logs will tell us what actually happened. I have in fact been trying to get this info from 3DR for weeks now. I havent downloaded the dataflash logs to date, as I understood it takes quite a long time (hours) wasn;t sure it would give me answers, and I was hoping 3DR might at least tell me what I am looking for. I had considered it though.

Currently I have the unit all packed up and ready to go back to 3DR, and am waiting for a return number, etc.

If I don't get that information today or they somehow come back with some reasonable solution (or path forward) I may unpack it and download the flash, if nothing else, to satisfy my curiosity, and since I will very likely be dealing with the PixHawk2 again sometime.. If I do, I will upload them and link to them here. I have already uploaded the tlog file to the "Finally!!" thread.

I also very much appreciate your offer to look at the files.. Do you know the specific parameter(s) I am looking for?

Thank You Again
Earl

Do you still have the flight logs that you emailed to 3DR when this first happened.
If you do, just email the logs to yourself.
If not, the logs should still be held in the Solo TX, just open your app and send another log but this time delete 3DR and copy /paste your email... You will have the logs...

 

[Rich]

Or.. if you are using an Andoid.. check this folder in your 'Files':

/storage/sdcard0/Android/data/com.o3dr.solo.android/files

You should see a file 'logs.zip'. This should be the files that you last emailed to 3DR.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

Do you still have the flight logs that you emailed to 3DR when this first happened.
If you do, just email the logs to yourself.
If not, the logs should still be held in the Solo TX, just open your app and send another log but this time delete 3DR and copy /paste your email... You will have the logs...

I do have the tlog files, I have posted the tlog fle in question here on the forum last week (in my "Finally!!" thread) and I have looked at the logs in considerable detail.

Contrary to what 3DR said, the logs show that I didn't put the Solo in pause, but rather it spontaneously went into ALT HOLD. Shortly after that, it shows a "horiz varience error". At this point it wasn't giving me any notifications or outward indications of problems. I took it up above the edge of a road at about 20 feet as I wanted to look at the tablet screen for a second to see if it would indicate it wasn't recording, and from a hover with little stick, it just tumbled down.

The logs show that I was giving little stick input mainly turning it around, and slightly adjusting position. In ALT HOLD the craft should hold altitude, but may drift horizontally. It was drifting, but only slightly. At this point it just went end over end, side over side nearly straight down. It moved "slighty" North on it's way down, which was a real stroke of luck, as it was hovering about over the sidewalk, and ended up about 4 ft North of that in the ivy and bushes.

I saw a few oddities in the tlog file (other than the ALT HOLD and horiz varience error).
The whole flight shows a bit further north than it really was. When I let the Solo hover it was about at the edge of the sidewalk and the bushes, not ffurther in...

After it tumbles, the file also shows it moving around. That didn't happen either... It went down in thick bushes, and I had to untangle it. It wasn't moving anywhere.

After the crash, the file shows the Solo heading due South at about 40 mph through yards, cars, etc. at -3 ft elevation, and it ends up quite a bit South of "home". None of that happened at all. I have a cut square from a Yoga pad that I use to launch. It started and ended there at "home" where I took it directly back after it crashed.

This of course could just be inacuracies of GPS, but some of that is WAY off, and along with automtically going into AT HOLD and including the mysterious "horiz variance error" , it could also conceivably be clues as to what actually happened.

At the time the Solo didn't look worse for wear. No lost props, no scratches, etc., but when I went to start it, I found that it wouldn't. I rebooted and found the reason was a bad motor... After working with 3DR and pulling the motor the Solo booted, and the remaining motors worked. I sent the log files. When I got the email saying I pushed pause, I started it up again so I could actually push pause and see the feedback (whicjh I knew I didn't get) and another motor smoked (litterally)

3DR said it wasn't the motor because there were no errors in the log file. Interestingly, though I am no expert on the log files, I can't see anything showing the motor that smoked on the next boot, in the subsequest log files. No errors of any kind. And yet, it has no more smoke, because it was all let out

I would be very interested to see what a bad motor looks like in the tlog files.... What also scares me is that I could easily wait two more weeks to actually get motors (my best estimate) and install them, then have the exact same thing happen again. At which point I will be a month in to owning a broken Solo, with one flight, nothing working, and no ETA for a fix again, for something i just purcahsed and haven't been able to use. . And I don't believe I did anything at all wrong..

That is a pretty hard pill to swallow......




.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

I have done it both ways. MP was painfully slow. I actually gave up. Connecting via SCP was pretty quick. Actually added an android app to transfer to my device easily. Its something that @Rich found and works perfect.

I just saw that exchange. I may go back and look at that, and try tonight. I have to travel to CA for a project early in the AM, and don't think I can afford to bring the broken Solo with me..

 

[RyanG]

Earl: I am sorry for your plight. I can only say I hope they fix this soon. I would continue to call them and ask to continue to talk to a supervisor and see if something happens quicker.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Ryan G

 

[JohnSal]

This is a cluster ---- no doubt. My unsolicited advice is to save your energy for dealing with 3dr. Don't waste your time trying to convince people here that don't want to be convinced. It doesn't get you any closer to finality with 3dr. And after all of this why would you not want your money back? If you are feeling brave buy another one. No way I'd be waiting on motors. Cheers!

I do have the tlog files, I have posted the tlog fle in question here on the forum last week (in my "Finally!!" thread) and I have looked at the logs in considerable detail.

Contrary to what 3DR said, the logs show that I didn't put the Solo in pause, but rather it spontaneously went into ALT HOLD. Shortly after that, it shows a "horiz varience error". At this point it wasn't giving me any notifications or outward indications of problems. I took it up above the edge of a road at about 20 feet as I wanted to look at the tablet screen for a second to see if it would indicate it wasn't recording, and from a hover with little stick, it just tumbled down.

The logs show that I was giving little stick input mainly turning it around, and slightly adjusting position. In ALT HOLD the craft should hold altitude, but may drift horizontally. It was drifting, but only slightly. At this point it just went end over end, side over side nearly straight down. It moved "slighty" North on it's way down, which was a real stroke of luck, as it was hovering about over the sidewalk, and ended up about 4 ft North of that in the ivy and bushes.

I saw a few oddities in the tlog file (other than the ALT HOLD and horiz varience error).
The whole flight shows a bit further north than it really was. When I let the Solo hover it was about at the edge of the sidewalk and the bushes, not ffurther in...

After it tumbles, the file also shows it moving around. That didn't happen either... It went down in thick bushes, and I had to untangle it. It wasn't moving anywhere.

After the crash, the file shows the Solo heading due South at about 40 mph through yards, cars, etc. at -3 ft elevation, and it ends up quite a bit South of "home". None of that happened at all. I have a cut square from a Yoga pad that I use to launch. It started and ended there at "home" where I took it directly back after it crashed.

This of course could just be inacuracies of GPS, but some of that is WAY off, and along with automtically going into AT HOLD and including the mysterious "horiz variance error" , it could also conceivably be clues as to what actually happened.

At the time the Solo didn't look worse for wear. No lost props, no scratches, etc., but when I went to start it, I found that it wouldn't. I rebooted and found the reason was a bad motor... After working with 3DR and pulling the motor the Solo booted, and the remaining motors worked. I sent the log files. When I got the email saying I pushed pause, I started it up again so I could actually push pause and see the feedback (whicjh I knew I didn't get) and another motor smoked (litterally)

3DR said it wasn't the motor because there were no errors in the log file. Interestingly, though I am no expert on the log files, I can't see anything showing the motor that smoked on the next boot, in the subsequest log files. No errors of any kind. And yet, it has no more smoke, because it was all let out

I would be very interested to see what a bad motor looks like in the tlog files.... What also scares me is that I could easily wait two more weeks to actually get motors (my best estimate) and install them, then have the exact same thing happen again. At which point I will be a month in to owning a broken Solo, with one flight, nothing working, and no ETA for a fix again, for something i just purcahsed and haven't been able to use. . And I don't believe I did anything at all wrong..

That is a pretty hard pill to swallow......




.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

Earl: I am sorry for your plight. I can only say I hope they fix this soon. I would continue to call them and ask to continue to talk to a supervisor and see if something happens quicker.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Ryan G

OK... Update....

I will refrain from being optimistic.... I learn... but there is "apparent" progress...

I took one last stab at talking to 3DR Monday. It started off bad, and on the same path it was following before, though I did confirm that they would take it back (though I still didn't have the RMA) and also (verbally) that the "30 day money back gaurantee" period starts when you get the gimbal. That said, I was about to give up and just work on finalizing the return, since they told me (again) that a manager was not available to talk.

I decided though that if I was about to send this back and say goodbye to 3DR (for which I had high hopes) that I had nothing to lose. I decided I would not get off the phone until I talked to an actual engineer that could go through the tlog files with me and told them so. It was not at ALL easy, and they tried to get me off several times, including have the same engineer that never responded to me finally do so.... on email... But I refused, being polite, calm, but assertive, and VERY persisent.

In the end, I got a live engineer, and got him to open the tlog file. I explained what I was seeing, asked the questions, and they agreed that something strange was going on. I confirmed what was said here, that the ALT HOLD was caused by a large discrepency between the GPS and either the magnatometer (compass) or the Accelerometer, and when this happens, it spits it out of GPS control to Altitude Hold. Note: We didn't answer why there is no notification, but since they didn't push back... I assume this is known..

We also didn't answer absolutely why the thing flipped over and over, which was the actual problem. He confirmed that stick input from me was not the culprit. Which was "implied" before... We went over (and over) where I was (including Google street view) and I must have said "No I didn't hit anything" a thousand times.. Not a tree, not a bird, not a building, not a pole that isn't on the satellite picture, but in the end he agreed....

The reason they were stuck on this was because what they look for when a motor dies is the servo output for that motor to max out as the flight controller tries to compensate, and they didn't see it. I wish they would have said that before, but at least I know now... Note: There is no actual feedback from the motors.

We confirmed that the craft flipped at least 3 times in about 20 feet going straight down. I still think it was a bad motor, but they aren't convinced. If they are right, I am scared even more... They still have no motors, and hope to get "some" by the end of this week...

Side Note: I did learn a neat trick with Mission Planner that others may already know, but being a nube with it I didn't. In addition to the graph view, on the telemetry tab where you can play a tlog file overlayed on the map, there is a check box at the bottom for "tuning". If you select that you get a live graph on the top of the map. If you click that, you get all the parameters available and can select them for live simultaneous display, while "playing" the tlog file. An example of the values you might want to see are the stick inputs (ch1in, ch2in, ch3in, ch4in) while watching the Solo on the map. Not exactly stick animations as with Phantom, but useful nonetheless. You can actually select any value, so it is a nice aspect of the tool.

At the end, he admitted that they are still having GPS issues after the update, which explains the ALT HOLD and that something else was going on. I asked for a replacement, and they were very reluctant, saying they actually don't have them right now.... Not sure whether I can believe that, but the engineer made an offer. He offered to take it back, swap the motors, and personally put it through the paces, trying to replicate the problem, and either fix it, or if they were not sure after a short time, get me a new one...

Being that he was being much more reasonable, and that I have spent most of my adult life being in his shoes, and that I actually do want to help, I went down that path, asking him what he would "expect" the turn around time to be. He obviously said he couldn't promise anything, but assuming they got motors this week, he expected it to be a 2 week round trip.

It was tough, and I went over it in my mind several times, thinking about my experience and what I want. I like the concept of open source, and the big picture of what 3DR is doing. I do want them to succeed, and in my small way do my part to help, so I said yes. I waited until today to actually get the Fedex Label, but I am in NoCal now on a job (using the "other" video quad) and thought ahead enough to bring the Solo with me. They are in SoCal, so even ground, they should get it quickly

I just shipped it off this afternoon. Hopefully I will have it (or a cousin) back by the time I get my gimbal and the extra battery, which is the minimum necessary to make the thing actually operational for me. I also don't have to send back the sun shade, extra props and the FPVLR

Now we will see if "the plan" actually comes together.... I hate being cynical, but if you look at this and my "Finally!!" thread, you can likely see why I am cautious about claiming a solution at this point. Hopefully we are on a good glide path now though and I am able to actully put this thing through it's paces soon...

 

[Solo4Me]

Earl

check out this video...it tumbles down out of the sky just as you described yourd doing:

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[Jubalr]

Earl

check out this video...it tumbles down out of the sky just as you described yourd doing:

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That appears to be the loss of a motor or prop. Did you find all of the prop pieces at the point of impact?

 

[Earldgrayjr]

Earl

check out this video...it tumbles down out of the sky just as you described yourd doing:

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Exactly!!! That could have been my video. At least the first part . My flight was lower and shorter. Mine wasn't as high up, and landed in a bush so no scratches, lost props etc. but ended up with 2 bad motors.

Curious to know if you have bad motor(s)

 

[Solo4Me]

Exactly!!! That could have been my video. At least the first part . My flight was lower and shorter. Mine wasn't as high up, and landed in a bush so no scratches, lost props etc. but ended up with 2 bad motors.

Curious to know if you have bad motor(s)

I'm sorry (or happy) - this is not my crash, you would have to direct the question to the guy who put up the vid on YouTube. I posted it on this thread because is sounded exactly like your crash.

3DR has already indicated that it looks like a prop broke in mid air.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

I'm sorry (or happy) - this is not my crash, you would have to direct the question to the guy who put up the vid on YouTube. I posted it on this thread because is sounded exactly like your crash.

3DR has already indicated that it looks like a prop broke in mid air.

Oops. Sorry.. Thought it was yours. I know mine wasn't props, as they were and are intact. They kept saying it wasn't motors, but I think the data supporting that doesn't exist. My guess is it is a motor that failed in a way they don't usually see. I confirmed the Solo was in their hands Friday morning, so hopefully I find out soon.

 

[Eric Sheehan]

Honestly, today is the first day I have considered sending it back.
Level calibration every flight,
Level ground must be hard concrete
Putting on propellers causes loss of GPS, love that calibration step
Sneaking my hand under the copter to turn on gopro causes loss of GPS
Follow me, very herky jerky
Batteries and propellers on back order since May 15
3 days wait period to answer simple operational questions by support email
I had to call in to verify, re-verify, re-order and then gripe about losing my place in line for gimbal (they ended up making it right, as far as I know, however it took 6 phone calls to communicate my concern about this)

I'm losing faith the gimbal is going to save the day, although I sure hope it does. In reality, I probably won't send it back, but expect a lot of improvement once they "catch up".

From the get go, they should have made it clear what was possible, and what was not, without the gimbal.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

Agreed. They also REALLY need to fix this GPS sensitivity problem. It is at the heart of many others...

If we continue to have GPS problems "Smart Shots" are dangerous, much less using Tower.

I sincerely hope they do...

 

[Droned]

I for one got a RMA 29 days after I purchased it at BB. I had that bouncing issue when landing in manual fly. Took about a week for one of those engineers to email me back and state they couldn't find anything in the logs I sent them the same day it happened. Called yesterday within one minute their call center opened my call was answered within 10 seconds got my RMA then. Still on the fence whether I want to return it as they didn't specify that I had to return within xx days.

 

[Earldgrayjr]

I forgive them hiccups.... For a while....

If they get the GPS figured out (which they can) then the open source value will be revealed. If the gimbal is ALSO done well thse things together will make it worthwhile for me. Even using Tower with a good gimbal will change the way I shoot dramatically for the better..... IF it works...

Time will tell...