Motors Swapped to T-Motor 2216-12 800kV

David Weston · Nov 20, 2015

No, wouldn't use that motor again!,,But maybe the pod itself for a spare. Guess I will stay with the 3DR source for reasons mentioned. I will then have all new motors and 2 original spares CW and CCW with new bearings. That should cover it.

Doug Benson · Nov 25, 2015

David Weston said:
Roland, Mike, and others. Decided I would replace the thrust washers with new Teflon ones so I took my 1st spare, the original motor that had the bad bearing, and started taking it apart again. I was using a jewelers screwdriver to remove the (new) circ-clip when it slipped and ooops, broke a winding wire. Well, that's trash now,,or is it? BTW, the Boca bearing (sealed) are $17.00/pair. What do you think about replacing the motor I just trashed with the 900 kv MT2216 T-motor?

High Performance Brushless T-Motor MT2216 900kv for Copter

just curious, is this the only motor option upgrade for solo?

Dmitry · Nov 27, 2015

and quiet, no engine does not change?

RichWest · Dec 4, 2015

@RolandS888 - Are you back yet? You're killing me......waiting for your results..

JoelNewman · Dec 4, 2015

Yes we'd love an update!
The footage from my Solo is unusable at the moment and I have some nice Axi motors and Graupner props that would look great on it.

RolandS888 · Dec 5, 2015

RichWest said:
@RolandS888 - Are you back yet? You're killing me......waiting for your results..

Yes I am back, unfortunately the weather dosent want to play nicely today. 40mph (35 knots) and rain.
I have set up a test rig for running motor pods out of the Solo (will post pics and how to, soon), and I now have a vibration meter too. (Android apps just dont cut it.)
The T-motors have vibration velocity readings that are very low out of the box and I have been able to fine tune their balance down to zero (<0.05mm/s = 0 on my meter, stock solo motors are up to 8.5mm/s)
They just sit in your hand and spin, you can barely feel anything.
Will hopefully fly them tomorrow if the weather improves.

I have also discovered a relationship between motor running noise and that cogging feel, basically the more it coggs the more noise it makes while running.
And, re bearings, if the bearings are noisey, the motor is almost impossible to balance to a low figure, the measurements bounce around all over the place.
More to come...

RichWest · Dec 5, 2015

RolandS888 said:
The T-motors have vibration velocity readings that are very low out of the box and I have been able to fine tune their balance down to zero (<0.05mm/s = 0 on my meter, stock solo motors are up to 8.5mm/s)
They just sit in your hand and spin, you can barely feel anything.
Will hopefully fly them tomorrow if the weather improves....

Well I guess we now know motors can be assembled and actual run true....on the Solo. Your numbers are actually very impressive....obviously. Running them through the power band up and down will be the most telling. Me personally I'd like to hear the motors and props in any test video you produce.

My question now would be the propeller and motor performance. Can't say I know much on the subject for choosing the combination, other than dimensions. If I was to impulse buy, which it would be today, I'd purchase the closest match to factory. And based on your previous metering, the 900kV motor would be near equal to factory. I honestly have no clue what combination to choose and why...

What propeller's would you choose if using the 900kV motors? Brand and pitch? I'm ready to run down the rabbit hole....to support your discoveries.

I appreciate your efforts and sharing it here with others.

J R · Dec 5, 2015

RichWest said:
What propeller's would you choose if using the 900kV motors? Brand and pitch? I'm ready to run down the rabbit hole....to support your discoveries.

I appreciate your efforts and sharing it here with others.

Ditto, what Rich said!

Jerry

Maddog · Dec 5, 2015

RolandS888 said:
Yes I am back, unfortunately the weather dosent want to play nicely today. 40mph (35 knots) and rain.
I have set up a test rig for running motor pods out of the Solo (will post pics and how to, soon), and I now have a vibration meter too. (Android apps just dont cut it.)
The T-motors have vibration velocity readings that are very low out of the box and I have been able to fine tune their balance down to zero (<0.05mm/s = 0 on my meter, stock solo motors are up to 8.5mm/s)
They just sit in your hand and spin, you can barely feel anything.
Will hopefully fly them tomorrow if the weather improves.

I have also discovered a relationship between motor running noise and that cogging feel, basically the more it coggs the more noise it makes while running.
And, re bearings, if the bearings are noisey, the motor is almost impossible to balance to a low figure, the measurements bounce around all over the place.
More to come...

Which vibration meter?

How do you know if bearings are noisy or if it's something else?

Thanks for all the info!

pyrate · Dec 5, 2015

has there been a solid bearing replacement identified
3DR will not replace my bad pods unless I send the entire copter.
so the two I bought addressed my problems but I would like to replace the bearings in my bad ones to see if I can smooth them out

RolandS888 · Dec 6, 2015

Ok, @RichWest just for you Id like to do a camparison.
Have a look at this video, I dont know who he is but the motors are typical of the sound and vibes you get on a Solo with stock motors.
Personally, I think the only good motor he has on there is the first one tested, and they just get worse from there, the back two are shockers

I have done a similar video with my motors running at 50% and 100%, you can hear the consistancy of the sound.
Also, the audio is quite loud as the GoPro is only a foot away from the Solo.
I went one step further and did some balance work on those T-motrs as well. The front two motors vibes are now down to zero (<0.05mm/s) and the back are in the region of 0.50mm/s.

RolandS888 · Dec 6, 2015

Running and Balancing motor pods.

Using a little Omni 6360 vibe meter I have been able to consistantly measure and balance my brushless motors (not just on Solo).
The ESC pod is connected (as described below) and driven via a Hitec HFP-20 servo checker which provides consistant repeatable pulse train. The Omni vibe meter is bolted firmly to the motor pod (and is isolated from the desk by a piece of foam - not shown here), the motor is run up to half throttle and a vibration velocity reading taken. A 16 volt power supply is used to supply consistant voltage with no battery 'droop'.
A small piece of insulation tape is placed on at 12 different places around the motor and the 12 readings taken. From the results a pattern can be seen and the lowest reading is where the weight needs to be added.
Experimentation with more or less tape will cause the vibes to increase or decrease, and with a bit of playing around you can get quite a good result.
I have been able to balance 2 of my T-motors down to zero (< 0.05mm/s) where the vibes are imperceptible.
Those motors are now sitting on the front of my Solo.
This method can be used for any motors really, but its good to have a consistant and repeatable way to diagnose vibration issues. With this method, if I peel the tape off, the reading goes back to the 'no tape' vibe reading, just as expected.
I also found that the noisy stock motors which had obviously bad bearings, their vibration readings were jumping around all over the place making it very hard to get a decent balance result. Where as a new stock motor was smooth and reading only swayed a little and it was able to be balanced quite well.
The (bought) T-motors vibe readings were dead stable (probably as a result of having larger bearings and thicker shaft) and were able to be reduced further. One of the T-motors was obviously different and felt different to turn by hand as well, it was also noisier when running and is only being kept as a bad spare for Solo.
If you want to get really pedantic, once a reasonable balance has been acheived and one balance 'weight' has been attached, if you start the whole process again you will find a second location for a much smaller weight and can bring the vibration figure down even further. I suppose you could even go to a third stage as well. Usually though, one step is enough, and the motors I got down to zero vibes happened on the first pass.

On the Solo motor pod the 3rd (Ground) and 4th (signal) pins of the 8 pin plug are what you need to connect to in order to get a pod running out of Solo. Just connect a 4S lipo to the main wires, and a servo driver to pins 3 and 4 and away you go. The pod fires up at 1060mS and full throttle is at 1860mS, so I guess 1460mS is half throttle.
With the pod pwered on 4S the leds go green as a default.

RolandS888 · Dec 6, 2015

@RichWest and @J R,
The 900kv version of T-motors 2216 is probably the closest to the stock motors as you mentioned, with something around 9-10" diameter, 4-5" pitch.
Im using the 800kv version to leave the option open to use 11" props. The 11s might be a bit big for a 900kv motor.(currents will increase)
As far as final prop choice goes, I still need to put a motor pod onto my thrust stand and try a few alternatives, thats the only way to get decent results.
On previous copters the APC MR faired well, but you will need motors that have DJI compatible prop adapters, such as what T-motor offer as an option (PA029 / 30).
For now I am just looking at flying with stock props so I can compare apples to apples, then I'll go changing props. (When I finally do get out flying.)

RolandS888 · Dec 6, 2015

pyrate said:
has there been a solid bearing replacement identified
3DR will not replace my bad pods unless I send the entire copter.
so the two I bought addressed my problems but I would like to replace the bearings in my bad ones to see if I can smooth them out

@Maddog and @pyrate Im pretty sure the bearings have been identified, do a search.
Motors should be reasonably quiet, in these chinese motors any buzzing or screaming noise is usually the bearings.

David Weston · Dec 6, 2015

Replaced bearings with Boca Bearings (sealed) and got a significant reduction in noise and what I believe to be a major reduction in vibration but I am using The Mark V I-ball for vibration detection, nothing at all like Roland's rig.

RichWest · Dec 6, 2015

RolandS888 said:
Ok, @RichWest just for you Id like to do a comparison.

Don't take this the wrong way, I love you man....

Night and day differences, you did a great job with your video and testing. Hearing motors like that can make a big change in vibration performance. My old P2V+ motors purr like in your video. My Solo sounds like the first video.

I notice a hesitation or sputter when throttling up my motors, this causes a rapid shimmy in the bird in flight. I'm unsure if this a function of the ESC or is it related to the motor. So it'll be interesting to have your take on motor response when you have an opportunity to fly. I'm fairly certain it is the motors.

Thanks again for the testing and video. It's actually very exciting to believe we can pull this bird together and make it what we all believe it can be... Look forward to hear of actual flight results. You're on my prayer list for good flying weather.... We're having a gorgeous day here, but the Christmas lights can't wait another week per the boss. Dang the luck.

Venkat Pakala · Dec 9, 2015

what were the flight times?

XperienceVisuals · Dec 9, 2015

RolandS888 said:
Ok, @RichWest just for you Id like to do a camparison.
Have a look at this video, I dont know who he is but the motors are typical of the sound and vibes you get on a Solo with stock motors.
Personally, I think the only good motor he has on there is the first one tested, and they just get worse from there, the back two are shockers

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I have done a similar video with my motors running at 50% and 100%, you can hear the consistancy of the sound.
Also, the audio is quite loud as the GoPro is only a foot away from the Solo.
I went one step further and did some balance work on those T-motrs as well. The front two motors vibes are now down to zero (<0.05mm/s) and the back are in the region of 0.50mm/s.

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Hey that vid is mine. And I agree the motors sound horrendous. 3 of those motors are new and ironically the one that sounds good is the only original. The 3 that I replaced were much worse. 2 of which had a very audible tick/grind noise when rotated. Even with the new motors sounding off the vibrations were reduced dramatically. Ive just come to except the fact my Solo sounds like a banshee at this point. I am getting smooth footage though.

pyrate · Dec 9, 2015

My quietest motors were the ones producing more vibrations

RolandS888 · Dec 9, 2015

Ok, time for some results. (Put the kettle on, this might take a while...)

I have finally been able to fly a few packs on the new T-motor setup, and new APC props and then also compared them to the stock props. More on that later.....
Firstly a bit of background.
While I was waiting for the wind to die down a bit ( which took a week) I set up some Solo motor pods on a thrust test stand and tested various combinations of motors and props for thrust, power and efficiency (grams of thrust per watt).
The combinations I tried were...
1. Brand new stock Solo motor pod and stock prop. (Supposedly a T-motor, I have doubts as it is vastly different from standard T-motor quality)
2. T-motor 2216 800kv with stock prop
3. T-motor 2216 800kv with APC 1045 MR(ST) prop
4. T-motor 2216 800kv with APC 1145 MR(ST) prop
5. T-motor 2216 800kv with 1033 Mejzlik MR prop
5. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with stock solo prop
6. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with APC 1045 MR(ST) prop
7. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with APC 1145 MR(ST) prop
8. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with white Phantom 1/2 9443 prop
9. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with generic Phantom replacement CF 9443 prop
10. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with HobbyKing 1045 folder prop
11. T-motor 2216 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor) with 1033 MR Mejzlik prop

In order to have some consistancy in testing these motors, my setup consisted of the following.
1200w power supply set to 16 volts.
Infinity hobby thrust test stand.
3 x Solo motor pods, one with T-motor 2216-12 800kv motor, one with T-motor 2216-11 900kv (TBS Disco Pro motor), and one completely stock Solo motor new out of the packet.
All motors were balanced as per my method mentioned a few posts back
All props were balanced (with the exeption of the HK folder which is rubbish)
Hitec HFP-20 servo checker/programmer to provide a consistant repeatable driving pulse train
Turnigy power meter
All motors were driven by Solo escs, as different ESCs can show differing currents depending on the way they switch.
The Solo motor pods start truning at 1060mS and are at full throttle at 1860mS.
Current, power and thrust readings were taken at
1260mS (25%) 1460mS (50%) 1660mS (75%) and 1860mS (100%)
Thrust is measured on a strain gauge scale with an LCD display and a resolution of 10 grams

Below is the test setup...(leds on motor pods power up as green by default)

And the lineup...(white tape on the Solo motor is what was need to get it balanced)

Sample readings...

The whole idea is to find the best combo of motor prop that will produce the highest efficency number.
The higher the efficiency, the lower the throttle needed to maintain hover and the longer the flight time on the same battery

Im not going to bore you with all the results of all the readings, but I will show a sample of the readings I took for the stock Solo motor and prop, so you can see where I am heading with this.

EDIT: added spreadsheet snippet

Now if we are assuming an All Up Weight weight of 1.8kg with gimbal and gopro, then we need one motor/prop combo to supply a quarter of that to hover the aircraft, so 450 grams of thrust.
So at 450 grams of thrust we would see a figure slightly less than 8.0g/W, around 7.6.

So hovering with this motor/prop combo at 1.8kg/7.6g/W = 237W total /14.8v=16 Amps. 16amps/5.2AH = flight time of 0.30 hours. or just under 20 minutes...which is pretty much what we see in real life.
The same principles can be applied with the figures for all the other motor/prop combos to figure out flight times based on thrust test and efficiency data.
But Im not going to go there for all the different combos in this post..

So to cut a long story short, here is my bullet point summary based on the figures I found whilst thrust testing.
- The Stock motor/prop combo is actually pretty good (so long as the motor bearings survive and everything is balanced))
- The T-motor 2216 800kv /stock prop combo is slightly more efficient
- The T-motor 2216 800kv / APC1045 MR(ST) prop combo is slightly more efficent again
- For the T-motor 2216 900kv the best prop is the stock Solo prop, using an APC 1045 reduces the efficiency.
- The 1145 MRST is too big for the T-motor 2216 800kv motor, in fact its too big for a 2216 period.
None of the other props are as good as these combinations.

Having said that, these are small motors and have small torque ranges. Bigger motors usually show more differences with changes in props, these motors are really quite close even from the best to the worst performing prop.
So if you were going to change the motors for bought T-motors, Id recommend the 2216 800kv with prop adapters to suit the APC 1045MR (ST) props, you can also fit the stock Solo props to these.
And balance everything.!!
If you wanted to go with the 2216 900 kv, then the APC 1045s are not really an option, and you would be best flying with the stock Solo props. Still a good reliable combination, with quiet motors.

I have a renewed respect for the stock props, they actually work very well in the thrust tests.

I am now flying with the 2216 800kv T-motors and APC 1045MR(ST) props.
I have found these props to be quieter than the stock props, ( the motors are alot quieter than the stock motors) and with the small efficiency gain I can see slightly lower current draw in the air.(around 15-16 amps now, where as previously 18-19 amps hovering)
This should translate to a slightly longer flight time as well, although I havent seen this as I was flying in gust conditions, because the bloody wind here has just not stopped .

The main reason I did this is twofold, to increase reliability as there is no second chance on motor failure, with a quad, and secondly, to reduce the bearing noise, which frankly, I find embarrasing.
Its a high quality machine, it should purr. And now it does.

Im not a big fan of the grey APC props on Solo so I have dyed them black and they dont look any different than the stock setup at first glance. Will post a pic soon.
Its getting late here, more installments as I get more flight time on these motors and props.
Cheers.
Roland.